(2022-02-09, 05:34 AM)darwin_te Wrote: Column sorting is disabled in Real Time because the list is already presorted.
Please enable as I wanted a sorted column in "Real Time Observing"
Thanks a lot.
Cheers.
Sorting the objects so you can pick the best ones to observe at that moment, is the whole point of the Real Time tool. It would be pointless to change that.
Try using the Nightly Planner instead. It is designed to be sorted arbitrarily. If you have some reason to pick objects based on their distance, or whatever, create a custom list for just these objects. Then open it in the Real Time tool at the telescope so it can tell you which ones you should be looking at now, and which ones you should not be wasting your time looking at.
Also, please read the topic in the help system about using the Real Time tool, as I think you may find it to be very useful in the field, if used as intended.
Please, please enable column sorting in Real Time.
I totally get the "ideal" point of observing is to make the observation when it is best place in the sky. No argument on that concept. But in reality, observers don't always have those conditions.
First, I am a double star observer working off of long-term projects (physical binaries, all of Struve, all of Aitken, all of Burnham, etc.). I am willing to make an observation if it is not ideally placed, knowing what I give up in quality. But also my observing location is a suburban back yard, with a huge tree blocking meridian to the east, and my north blocked by my house, and I am on the landing path to a major airport so I have planes disturbing the air, and neighbors turning lights on at random. Usually my best place to point the scope is not where the "Best Now" or "Tour" algo says it is, and I can't keep up with my projects because these algos remove my targets from Real Time. Yes I can pick the object from Nightly Planner, but it's a real pain to use: I have to first open up the detail window and then a sub menu to slew to -- instead of just hitting a button on Real Time. When using ST3 I was very efficient because I could sort the columns as dictated by conditions -- now it is observing with ST has become very irritating.
I observe with a 20-inch f/5.25, so I am on the ladder all night. When I could sort columns I could arrange my list by constellation and RA, and I could stay on the ladder for the whole session because the sky would bring the double stars to me. Now look how "Best Now" pre-sorted a list of Struves in Hercules: there is often 1 hour of RA difference row to row. I either have to move the ladder with each slew, or I have to scrutinize the observing list and "sort" it manually by earliest RA.
Please, give us the flexibility to manipulate our observing lists. Yes we give up the best view, but in life we don't always have that opportunity.
2022-06-23, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 2022-06-23, 05:34 PM by theskyhound.)
To anyone else having difficulty with the Real Time tool:
I'm in a hotel room and should be preparing for a talk I'm doing at the RMSS tomorrow, so I'll try to be brief, even though this isn't a simple issue.
When someone asks me to enable the column sorting in the Real Time tool it triggers more than you might think. Real Time had some real shortcomings from the beginning, but for whatever reason, people chose to find work arounds rather than explain to me what wasn't working. This goes back to the beta test where a tester actually quit the test rather than explain to me what wasn't working for him. It turned out to be a simple bug and it was a damn shame he didn't stick around. Working around the tool, or disabling it, is not a way forward. That is not on the table.
If you are having similar difficulties please reach out to me so that we can work to improve the tool. Explain your situation like Mark did and include screenshots.
We did a Real Time only beta test last fall, but it was limited to only a few testers. I have put a lot of effort into the Real Time tool and its algorithm over the last year, starting at last years RMSS, where I used it exclusively. I have used it in many different situations and with many different telescopes. I have spent hours simulating various situations. There is a multipart set of tutorials that are almost finished that explain how to best use Real Time, and in the process of creating those, I found more things to improve.
When someone tells me it doesn't work for them there are four possibilities:
1. They have misunderstood something fundamental about how it works and are not using it in a way that leads to success
2. There is a bug in the algorithm that I have not yet caught because I don't get enough useful feedback
3. There is a special circumstance that the algorithm fails to work well for--something I had not anticipated. Again, I can only address this with better feedback.
4. I created a tool that cannot ever work, and should be abandoned by allowing people to disable it.
If you look at it in the light of the above, perhaps you can see why I don't respond well when people go straight to number 4 without giving me a chance to understand the problem first. My job is to make this work, not give you the ability to turn it off.
2022-06-23, 04:52 PM (This post was last modified: 2022-06-23, 05:28 PM by theskyhound.)
(2022-06-22, 10:17 PM)Mark McCarthy Wrote: Hi Greg,
Please, please enable column sorting in Real Time.
I totally get the "ideal" point of observing is to make the observation when it is best place in the sky. No argument on that concept. But in reality, observers don't always have those conditions.
First, I am a double star observer working off of long-term projects (physical binaries, all of Struve, all of Aitken, all of Burnham, etc.). I am willing to make an observation if it is not ideally placed, knowing what I give up in quality. But also my observing location is a suburban back yard, with a huge tree blocking meridian to the east, and my north blocked by my house, and I am on the landing path to a major airport so I have planes disturbing the air, and neighbors turning lights on at random. Usually my best place to point the scope is not where the "Best Now" or "Tour" algo says it is, and I can't keep up with my projects because these algos remove my targets from Real Time. Yes I can pick the object from Nightly Planner, but it's a real pain to use: I have to first open up the detail window and then a sub menu to slew to -- instead of just hitting a button on Real Time. When using ST3 I was very efficient because I could sort the columns as dictated by conditions -- now it is observing with ST has become very irritating.
I observe with a 20-inch f/5.25, so I am on the ladder all night. When I could sort columns I could arrange my list by constellation and RA, and I could stay on the ladder for the whole session because the sky would bring the double stars to me. Now look how "Best Now" pre-sorted a list of Struves in Hercules: there is often 1 hour of RA difference row to row. I either have to move the ladder with each slew, or I have to scrutinize the observing list and "sort" it manually by earliest RA.
Please, give us the flexibility to manipulate our observing lists. Yes we give up the best view, but in life we don't always have that opportunity.
Thanks
Mark
Mark,
I only had a brief moment to read your message yesterday and my responses were poor as a result.
Thanks for sharing your observing situation and the screen capture. The way the algorithm currently works is when you are looking overhead it minimizes how far you move the telescope. In my experience, the way that works in practice is to move from one object to another in a group of similar RA, and then jump in Dec to another group. I see from your screen capture that in your case it is staying at a similar Dec and moving in RA, which I can see as not optimal for a Dob with a ladder. This is something that could potentially be improved in the algorithm when a Dob with a ladder is in use. But given that this isn't the way I usually see it work, before I look into changing the algorithm, I'd like to see the full screen capture with the top object selected, the use of a more reasonable value for the seeing, and the proper quality filter set. That and I can't tell if you have set up an obstructed horizon. My concern is that in your efforts to work around a perceived problem you have in fact created a much larger problem.
I strongly suggest adding an obstructed horizon so that SkyTools is aware of the places in the sky where you can't observe.
Looking again... you have disabled a lot of useful information, including the quality columns, and aren't using any filters on the list. This makes me wonder if you don't have things set up properly (I can't see the Nightbar in your screen capture) and have given up on other ST4 features as a result of that. Please reach out to me with more information about your location, and full window screen captures.
2022-06-23, 06:46 PM (This post was last modified: 2022-06-23, 06:47 PM by theskyhound.)
Mark,
I just realized something else that may be at the center of why this isn't working for you. SkyTools needs to know where the telescope is currently pointing and it needs to be updated every time you move it. If you skip this step you won't get the benefit of a list sorted to take you to the closest object (for obvious reasons). I can't tell from your cropped screen capture if you are taking advantage of telling SkyTools where the scope is pointing. I'll be you aren't though, which would explain why its not working right for you. With a Dob I'm assuming you aren't controlling the mount directly from SkyTools. If not, then you need to take some additional steps to tell it where you are pointing. This is done via the Observation Status column. If this sounds plausible, please see the Real Time help for the Best Now mode when not using telescope control. It explains how to set things up so that Real Time follows along, and it has the added benefit of removing objects from the list after you have observed them. I will be releasing a set of tutorials in a week or two that explains this in detail. Until then, please read the help topic and if you have a question please feel free to ask. I would much rather help you than be put in a position of saying no to a request!
I appreciate your effort to help me out, thank you. I like ST and want to keep liking it!
When I took the screen shot I was not connected to the scope. But the next opportunity I have, I will take a better screen shot. I set the seeing at excellent only to see if that had any effect on the Real Time sort. I do control the scope using SkyTools; I bring up my project lists in Real Time depending on time of year and conditions, pick the object, slew to it using the button on the Real Time screen, sync every once in a while using the button on the Real Time screen, observe, make a log entry, then on to the next. I don't have the horizons set, I will do that before my next session, and re-read the Real Time help file. The next opportunity I'll report what I find and take some screen shots while at the scope.
I use this scope 90% on double stars, a little on the moon and planets. Over the years I've become very familiar with my ability to detect and split different types (separation, delta mag) pairs under different seeing conditions--which is why I don't use the best eyepiece or other aids in Real Time--I pretty much already know what I need to do to make the observation--and why my columns are so few, because only the object name, coordinates, and magnitudes and separation are important to me, and fewer columns unclutters the screen and makes it easier to read. When seeing is poor I mask down to 7-inches and focus on my Struve project (to observe all the Struves and similar "easy" pairs). When seeing is good I go after pairs >0.5", and when it's really good >0.15" at full aperture. I have pre-made lists by RA for these projects (known orbits, Aitkens, Burnhams, etc.). Once I start observing for the night, I know from just looking what the seeing is like, which constellation is best to view (or which one I need to catch up with observations even if the constellation is not ideally placed), so I bring up the list in that RA slice and observe. Sorting columns in Real Time helped isolate constellations within the lists (though ST4 has a filter for that, I noticed). What has frustrated me is not being able to sort in RA, as described in the previous post, to avoid having to scan the list for the closest RA when the Real Time list is not sorting it that way.
Hopefully in the next few days I'll be able to make the horizon updates and observe from the scope again
I hope you understand now that there should be no need to sort by RA because this is already built into the SkyTools algorithm. You assumed doing it by hand was better, but there is more than one thing to consider. The SkyTools algorithm does a smart job of looking at all of the factors (more that one column if you will) and then guiding you to the next best target. Setting the seeing isn't for you... its so the software can best assist you in observing your pairs at the time of night when they are best observed. Its that part you have turned off. Consider: people say "I always observe when an object is high in the sky." Fine. But how high is high enough? Lets say you finish a pair and the next one is still a bit low. The SkyTools algorithm can tell you if that pair can be observed now, or if you should wait until it gets higher. I think its fair to say that this is the whole point of using SkyTools. I mean, there are dozens of software products that can just tell you where the pair is (or whatever). I think you should consider letting SkyTools tell you to go get another pair while that first one gets higher.
![[Image: rO7WGuI]](https://imgur.com/a/rO7WGuI)
