2020-07-18, 03:46 PM
Hi Greg,
First I want say that I’m really excited about the new features available in ST4 Real Time Observing like the “Best Now” mode, the Quality Curve and the two colored bars summarizing quality and observing difficulty. I predict that “Best Now” will be my default mode of operation while observing. I previously spent most of the time with the mode set to “Above 2X (Airmass) Only” and tried, when possible, to observe objects when they were near the meridian. Sorry if I am mourning the loss of some of the features that were available in ST3 Real Time, but I will try to explain when I found them useful (without hopefully getting too long winded).
Telescope pointing model – We’ve already covered this and it sounds like you have a few ideas for this in future releases. Perhaps this is an example of me using ST for something beyond its intended design and essential task but I found it very easy to adapt the real time observing feature for this task and it performed extremely well.
Meridian flips – We covered this one and sounds like it you have been thinking about it. But maybe it’s not a big issue. It seems like with V4.0h objects are sorted mostly by HA especially as they approach the meridian. I just recall a couple weeks ago this not being the case. I wish I would have saved that example.
Time is short – Okay it’s a great night but I’m running out of observing time, and there are a couple of objects on my list I really want to observe, however they are not on the “Best Now” list. At this point I guess I should go back to the Nightly Planner for observing.
The selection criteria for making the “Best Now” list seems to be related not just to the position of the object in the sky, but also the size of the list and the length of time that it’s considered good (I assume the decision comes primarily from your quality factor which I really like by the way). For example I have a bright star list which in ST3 shows 24 out of 49 objects available. In ST4 this same list shows 17 out of 49 available. Checking the ST3 list I see a number of objects that have not made to the ST4 list that are brighter and higher in the sky than some that have made it to the list in ST4. For example, Nunki made the cut at magnitude 2.0 and 19.5 degrees altitude. However, both Deneb and Altair are brighter and higher in the sky but did not make the cut. In fact both are above a 2x air mass at 33.3 and 31.5 degrees altitude respectively. I guess because they are available later in the night when they are better positioned they did not make the “Best Now” cut. So even if an object is reasonably placed in the sky it may not necessarily show up on the Real Time Observing list. I’ve also seen this with deep sky objects. For example, the Veil at altitude +59.5 degrees did not make the cut but NGC 3928 at +17.0 degrees did. In this case if I wanted to observe the Veil before I shut things down I should go to the Nightly Planner where I can make my log and observation entries.
Cloud avoidance – On some occasions where I would lose large portions of sky due to cloud banks, I would sort the list (by HA, declination, or azimuth) to place all the currently unobscured objects closer together on the list. I can do this in the Nightly Planner but it does not allow sorting on the current azimuth nor does it show the current altitude. Not a big deal to lose this one.
Observing Thin Moon Crescents – At times I would use ST to help a group of us observe extremely thin moon crescents. I have not tried this yet with ST4, but I have used ST3 in real time to provide a continuous update of the altitude and azimuth of the moon to aid us hunting for the crescent. It looks like this may work in ST4 for setting crescents. I think the moon will pass the “Best Now” selection in bright twilight especially if I make a special list where it is the only object. However, for rising crescents I don’t think it will show the moon position data until it has risen. In the rising case, ST3 would give us a nice countdown to moon rise with a continuous update of its altitude and azimuth and help guide us where to hunt on the horizon, catching it just as it sneaked above the horizon. I have used the ephemerides function for this also which is still available in ST4. But the real time observing mode was convenient to use gave us updates in real time. Okay maybe this one is not a big deal either since it is way off course from the essential tasks of ST. It’s just another example one of my oddball real time observing applications of ST3.
Regarding Object Class – You asked me specifically for an answer on this so I will try to explain what I did with ST3. For the past few years I’ve been creating the observing program for the Eldorado Star Party. After deciding on a theme (usually the hardest part), I would rely heavily on the Nightly Planner to come up with a candidate list of around 60 to 80 objects to observe. As I observed these objects over a number of nights I would make notes in SkyTools logs and begin the process of sorting them with the goal of reducing the list to about 25 objects. This is where, while I was observing, I might sort the list on things like object class, observed status, logged status, priority, magnitude etc. to see where things currently stood and adjust my observing priorities to whittle down the list. With the list sorted, I could easily count and compare how many of each object class I had observed to get the mix I was after; compare logging notes to adjust rankings, etc. I just found the spreadsheet form handy for this task, even while observing, because it gave me all the information I needed in one place and helped me decide during the night what to observe next. Most of this I can do in ST4 by switching to the Nightly Planner and if I need any real time data to help my decision I can switch back to Real Time and hope the object has made the cut. Interesting that during the daytime when not observing I would always default to the Nightly Planner to make these adjustments and decisions.
One thing I find a little cumbersome when switching back and forth between Nightly Planner and Real Time Observing is that it is quite a bit slower (due to the list being cleared and refreshed) and you lose your place (the object you had selected is no longer highlighted). In ST3, sorting the list in Real Time while observing was extremely fast. I think tended to use the column sort feature in real time more than the class filter because it was fast and made it easy to count how many of each class I now had on the list.
Side note – Here is perhaps another case where I would use ST features beyond their design intent. I would use the priority tag to rank the objects, rather than the object rating, so that the ranking only applied to the list I was currently working on.
Idle Curiosity – Where’s Pluto? Just for fun, and when the night got long and things got silly my observing buddy would sometimes ask me “Where’s Pluto?” I would answer, okay let’s ask Sky Tools. Bringing up the Sun, Moon and Planet list in the Real Time tab would quickly give me Pluto’s current azimuth and altitude. My buddy would get a good laugh when I pointed to a bare patch of grass on the ground (although he would still say he could see it naked eye if he used averted vision).
Anyway, the point here is that with ST3 I could find the current status of any object in its database at any time without much effort. With ST4 real time data is only available for those objects which have passed the “Best Now” criteria. With ST4 Pluto has to pass the “Best Now” criteria before I can answer my buddy’s question. Not an essential task but fun nonetheless.
Sorry, maybe I’m getting long winded and a little too silly here myself. Perhaps, one suggestion that would go far in helping my weird observing routines is to just have a “Show All” selection in the Real Time Observing Tab. I may not be able sort the list by columns but at least it would present the current observing and real time status of all the objects on the list regardless of whether they are considered “Best Now”. It would also help answer questions I may have like, “Why is object X not showing on the real time list?” and of course “Where is Pluto?” I promise I am not trying to circumvent the nice new features you have added to ST4 (with tons of hard work I’m sure). I’m a big proponent of being patient as possible, waiting for objects to get to a position in the sky that shows them at their best.
Thanks again,
Bill
First I want say that I’m really excited about the new features available in ST4 Real Time Observing like the “Best Now” mode, the Quality Curve and the two colored bars summarizing quality and observing difficulty. I predict that “Best Now” will be my default mode of operation while observing. I previously spent most of the time with the mode set to “Above 2X (Airmass) Only” and tried, when possible, to observe objects when they were near the meridian. Sorry if I am mourning the loss of some of the features that were available in ST3 Real Time, but I will try to explain when I found them useful (without hopefully getting too long winded).
Telescope pointing model – We’ve already covered this and it sounds like you have a few ideas for this in future releases. Perhaps this is an example of me using ST for something beyond its intended design and essential task but I found it very easy to adapt the real time observing feature for this task and it performed extremely well.
Meridian flips – We covered this one and sounds like it you have been thinking about it. But maybe it’s not a big issue. It seems like with V4.0h objects are sorted mostly by HA especially as they approach the meridian. I just recall a couple weeks ago this not being the case. I wish I would have saved that example.
Time is short – Okay it’s a great night but I’m running out of observing time, and there are a couple of objects on my list I really want to observe, however they are not on the “Best Now” list. At this point I guess I should go back to the Nightly Planner for observing.
The selection criteria for making the “Best Now” list seems to be related not just to the position of the object in the sky, but also the size of the list and the length of time that it’s considered good (I assume the decision comes primarily from your quality factor which I really like by the way). For example I have a bright star list which in ST3 shows 24 out of 49 objects available. In ST4 this same list shows 17 out of 49 available. Checking the ST3 list I see a number of objects that have not made to the ST4 list that are brighter and higher in the sky than some that have made it to the list in ST4. For example, Nunki made the cut at magnitude 2.0 and 19.5 degrees altitude. However, both Deneb and Altair are brighter and higher in the sky but did not make the cut. In fact both are above a 2x air mass at 33.3 and 31.5 degrees altitude respectively. I guess because they are available later in the night when they are better positioned they did not make the “Best Now” cut. So even if an object is reasonably placed in the sky it may not necessarily show up on the Real Time Observing list. I’ve also seen this with deep sky objects. For example, the Veil at altitude +59.5 degrees did not make the cut but NGC 3928 at +17.0 degrees did. In this case if I wanted to observe the Veil before I shut things down I should go to the Nightly Planner where I can make my log and observation entries.
Cloud avoidance – On some occasions where I would lose large portions of sky due to cloud banks, I would sort the list (by HA, declination, or azimuth) to place all the currently unobscured objects closer together on the list. I can do this in the Nightly Planner but it does not allow sorting on the current azimuth nor does it show the current altitude. Not a big deal to lose this one.
Observing Thin Moon Crescents – At times I would use ST to help a group of us observe extremely thin moon crescents. I have not tried this yet with ST4, but I have used ST3 in real time to provide a continuous update of the altitude and azimuth of the moon to aid us hunting for the crescent. It looks like this may work in ST4 for setting crescents. I think the moon will pass the “Best Now” selection in bright twilight especially if I make a special list where it is the only object. However, for rising crescents I don’t think it will show the moon position data until it has risen. In the rising case, ST3 would give us a nice countdown to moon rise with a continuous update of its altitude and azimuth and help guide us where to hunt on the horizon, catching it just as it sneaked above the horizon. I have used the ephemerides function for this also which is still available in ST4. But the real time observing mode was convenient to use gave us updates in real time. Okay maybe this one is not a big deal either since it is way off course from the essential tasks of ST. It’s just another example one of my oddball real time observing applications of ST3.
Regarding Object Class – You asked me specifically for an answer on this so I will try to explain what I did with ST3. For the past few years I’ve been creating the observing program for the Eldorado Star Party. After deciding on a theme (usually the hardest part), I would rely heavily on the Nightly Planner to come up with a candidate list of around 60 to 80 objects to observe. As I observed these objects over a number of nights I would make notes in SkyTools logs and begin the process of sorting them with the goal of reducing the list to about 25 objects. This is where, while I was observing, I might sort the list on things like object class, observed status, logged status, priority, magnitude etc. to see where things currently stood and adjust my observing priorities to whittle down the list. With the list sorted, I could easily count and compare how many of each object class I had observed to get the mix I was after; compare logging notes to adjust rankings, etc. I just found the spreadsheet form handy for this task, even while observing, because it gave me all the information I needed in one place and helped me decide during the night what to observe next. Most of this I can do in ST4 by switching to the Nightly Planner and if I need any real time data to help my decision I can switch back to Real Time and hope the object has made the cut. Interesting that during the daytime when not observing I would always default to the Nightly Planner to make these adjustments and decisions.
One thing I find a little cumbersome when switching back and forth between Nightly Planner and Real Time Observing is that it is quite a bit slower (due to the list being cleared and refreshed) and you lose your place (the object you had selected is no longer highlighted). In ST3, sorting the list in Real Time while observing was extremely fast. I think tended to use the column sort feature in real time more than the class filter because it was fast and made it easy to count how many of each class I now had on the list.
Side note – Here is perhaps another case where I would use ST features beyond their design intent. I would use the priority tag to rank the objects, rather than the object rating, so that the ranking only applied to the list I was currently working on.
Idle Curiosity – Where’s Pluto? Just for fun, and when the night got long and things got silly my observing buddy would sometimes ask me “Where’s Pluto?” I would answer, okay let’s ask Sky Tools. Bringing up the Sun, Moon and Planet list in the Real Time tab would quickly give me Pluto’s current azimuth and altitude. My buddy would get a good laugh when I pointed to a bare patch of grass on the ground (although he would still say he could see it naked eye if he used averted vision).
Anyway, the point here is that with ST3 I could find the current status of any object in its database at any time without much effort. With ST4 real time data is only available for those objects which have passed the “Best Now” criteria. With ST4 Pluto has to pass the “Best Now” criteria before I can answer my buddy’s question. Not an essential task but fun nonetheless.
Sorry, maybe I’m getting long winded and a little too silly here myself. Perhaps, one suggestion that would go far in helping my weird observing routines is to just have a “Show All” selection in the Real Time Observing Tab. I may not be able sort the list by columns but at least it would present the current observing and real time status of all the objects on the list regardless of whether they are considered “Best Now”. It would also help answer questions I may have like, “Why is object X not showing on the real time list?” and of course “Where is Pluto?” I promise I am not trying to circumvent the nice new features you have added to ST4 (with tons of hard work I’m sure). I’m a big proponent of being patient as possible, waiting for objects to get to a position in the sky that shows them at their best.
Thanks again,
Bill